I am in the market to purchase my first pistol for target shooting and home defense. I am looking at a Glock 22 and HK USP .40 (much more expensive than the glock)
Are there any gun owners here? Are there any places to get good deals on guns?
What gun would your recommend to a first timer (out of any, not just those 2)?
Dyin' ain't much of a living, boy
I'm a gun owner!
The best firearm for home defense is a shotgun. You don't even have to aim it. Plus, they're really cheap. You can get a single shot for less than $100.
If you really want a handgun for home defense, a revolver is best. They never jam and are easy to fire. A revolver will work just as well after sitting untouched for a decade. A semi-auto needs periodic cleaning and lubrication, even when unused. If I were to buy a revolver just for home defense (to keep locked in a gun case in the bedroom, for example) I'd buy a S&W Airweight.
For target shooting and general recreational shooting, I like a semi-auto, simply because you can shoot more ammo faster.
Go to a gun shop that has lots of guns and get your hands on all of them. I'd suggest not spending too much on your first gun, because once you get one, you learn fast what you *really* wanted. So buy used if possible.
The laws in CA are so complex these days, I just end up ordering from a local store. Unless your local stores are a bunch more expensive than ordering online, then try to find a nice shop nearby.
If you are looking for a home defense pistol, you might also want to consider a .45 ACP weapon. I think the basic rule of a home defense gun is to "get the most powerful one you can handle." If your wife is petite and she will also be trained in it, then you obviously can't be buying a .50 Desert Eagle. The best way to find out is to go out to a shooting range and rent 9mm, .40, .45, .357, .44. etc.
As for good first guns, your two choices are excellent. Glocks and the HK USP series are very reliable and low maintenance. Here would be my choices:
- Glock (they all look and function pretty much the same from model to model)
- Heckler and Koch USP
- Sig Sauer P series (the action is smooth as silk, it they are one of the easiest pistols to field strip)
- Revolver - Colt/Smith&Wesson (reliable and easy to use)
Some diehard enthusiasts might tell you to get an older style pistol like a Colt 1911 or a Browning Hi-Power. I would say, if you are new at this and this will be your only gun for a while, go with a more modern design. The polymer frames are more reliable and less prone to corrosion. They are also ready to go right out of the box.
Also, if you're considering an HK, look into the new P2000s too. Good luck.
I agree with WhiskeyPapa here. The best home defense weapon is a shotgun. You get ridiculous stopping power, it's hard to miss, and it's intimidating as hell. You know in the movies when they pump a shotgun? Yeah, it sounds like that, but it's much louder and scarier in person.Originally Posted by WhiskeyPapa
This is my home defense weapon of choice:
The good thing about shotguns is that the pellets lose energy fast. The risk of a stray round missing and hitting your neighbor is a lot lower than if you are using a handgun.
Couldn't agree more with Leon... Shoot first, then decide what you want. Obviously the lower caliber rounds are easier to shoot, but have less stopping power. I personally have a Walther P99 .40 and love it to death. For soem reason the P99 feels a lot better in my hand than the Glock, but its a personal preference.
I have shot both the HK and the Glock. The HK is a very nice weapon yet terribly expensive for what you want it for. The Glock is always a good choice, as it is easy to maintain and operate. The Walther will run you about $600 new if I remember right... I paid $450 for mine used, which is about what you can get a new Glock for if you look around.
Spigs, you MFR#1N!
WoW you guys are quick!
Thanks for the input... im processing it now. Oh I almost forgot, 1 other gun I was considering (for target shooting only) was the Ruger MrkIII Hunter (stainless steel w/ fluted barrel) (.22 cal)
Any feedback on this one?
I appreciate your comments on the shotgun, and I will get one when I own a home, but I am just renting an apartment right now and it seems a bit like overkill.
AS FOR USED GUNS...
1. Is there any chance of there being damage to them that I couldnt recognize right away?
2. How much cheaper (in good/ like new condition) should I expect to pay for the used one than the new one?
3. Is the best place to get these at pawn shops?
Dyin' ain't much of a living, boy
The Ruger MkII's are pretty much a classic. They're great pistols. It's a great idea to have a .22 practice gun since you won't pick up on bad habits early on. If the MkIII's are anything like the MkII's then they will serve you well. However, they are a major pain in the butt to clean and since they use rimfire ammo, you will need to clean them often.
WoW you guys are quick!
Thanks for the input... im processing it now. Oh I almost forgot, 1 other gun I was considering (for target shooting only) was the Ruger MrkIII Hunter (stainless steel w/ fluted barrel) (.22 cal)
Any feedback on this one?
I understand what you mean about it being overkill, but a shotgun would make the most sense in that situation. If you miss with a pistol, it will probably go through 4-6 walls before it stops. If you really don't want to get a shotgun, then consider buying safety slugs. The will break apart on impact and (hopefully) not go into your neighbor's unit.I appreciate your comments on the shotgun, and I will get one when I own a home, but I am just renting an apartment right now and it seems a bit like overkill.
1. For a pistol, it's a lot harder to tell. Revolvers you can more easily tell if the frame is damaged.AS FOR USED GUNS...
1. Is there any chance of there being damage to them that I couldnt recognize right away?
2. How much cheaper (in good/ like new condition) should I expect to pay for the used one than the new one?
3. Is the best place to get these at pawn shops?
2. The other two gentlemen will have to tell you about this one. All mine were new.
3. I would personally go to a gun shop. The shop will usually inspect them first before buying them, so that's an extra layer of protection for you. If you get something at a pawn shot, get a revolver.
I use gunbroker.com... it's basically an Ebay for guns. I bought my Walther off there and couldn't be happier with the transaction.
As for the .22, most little caliber guns like that are great for going out, spending $5 to shoot all day and not being broke at the end of the day.
I take my .223 M4 or the .40 Walther out to shoot and after 500 rds. I've spent like $80 to shoot for the afternoon. Granted, it's got a bit more range, but if you're just going out to plink around, a .22 is the way to go.
Last edited by IrishSS; 11-15-2005 at 07:53 AM.
Spigs, you MFR#1N!
Amen to that....
Taken from the "What is the Worst Sound Ever" Thread...
http://www.gotapex.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=24
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I'm also researching gun for purchase, I personally was thinking about buying a beretta px4 storm. I've researched a lot about this gun and I really dig it. the only drawback is the heafty pricetag.
Life is like toilet paper, long and useful!
The stars at night, are big and bright *clap 4x* deep in the heart of TEXAS!
Hardware? Need Deals?
In my experience, used pistols in good shape are generally 60%-75% of new price.
I have a Ruger MkII and it is a great gun. But a .22 will hardly stop a drug-addled ne'er-do-well.
Leon is right about firing a handgun in an apartment building. You may be totally justified in shooting an intruder, but you may end up hitting the 4 year old in the next apartment.
Actually, any round (handgun, rifle or shotgun) that will stop an intruder *will* penetrate walls.
The MK III is a little different from the MK II, I prefer the II, but the III is great gun. Still, I'm with WP, if you're looking at home defense, don't get a 22. Not that it won't do the damage, but it's not as psychologically effective as a larger handgun, or shotgun for that matter.
I recommend what Leon said. Go to a shooting range with a wide variety of guns available for rental. Or go with someone with a lot of guns. Shoot them all.
DO NOT listen to the guy behind the counter at the gun store. Commissions that come from the manufacturer are powerful motivators. I've met more than one person who has bought a "decent" gun that was sold to them as "the greatest gun known to man" and instantly regretted it.
I have an HK USP 9mm. I love it. It's comfortable and shoots well. I'm accurate enough to easilly put an entire magazine into anyone that gets into my house. But that's me.
Here's the thing. My word of recommendation is that you don't need to get the BEST gun out there. Get the most comfortable gun to your hand.
If the magazines say one has a one inch shot group and the other has a one and half inch shot group, don't automatically get the tighter group. You're likely to not shoot so well that you'll even notice that.
Where are you? If you're in So Cal, PM me and we'll go shooting, I'll try to give you a deal.
I prefer the MKII over the MKIII as well, but the Browning Buckmark is also a nice .22 (the one I have.)
If you're new to handguns, I suggest one of the above to get acquainted with gun safety, trigger control, etc., without spending much $$ on ammo. You can get like 500 rounds for $6 or so. You can also work on your accuracy to fix even SMALL flaws in technique, as your group sizes are much more significant with a .22.
Glocks are great, b/c they always go bang, there's no external safety to screw with, and they're about as durable as you can get. Yes, they're ugly as hell, but they work great.
Another thing to consider, especially for home defense, is penetration. You want the round to stop in the bad guy, and if you miss, you don't want it to penetrate your walls and hit a neighbor.
Shotguns can be a little unwieldy in a house, as generally their barrels are long. Yes, the clack-clack of a pump action scares the hell out of people, but for manuverability, I'd be tempted to grab a handgun and a good tactical light.
hollow point will have the stopping power!!!
Life is like toilet paper, long and useful!
The stars at night, are big and bright *clap 4x* deep in the heart of TEXAS!
You know what will stop any intruder and not injure any bystanders? Two things: This...
and being at one with The Force.
I'm no expert with guns, but I do have some familliarity with them.
I talked with a few profesional burglars, asked them what is the scarriest thing that ever happend to them when breaking into a house. One said that he heard a 12 guage pump. He got out of the house as fast as he could, even though he was armed at the time. One of the others said that he heard someone chamber a round into an automatic pistol, he left too, but he did say that he didn't think it was as scarry as a shotgun would be. The third said that "Freeze, Police!" whas the scarriest thing he ever heard but also admitted that he would pee his pants if he had ever heard a 12 guage pump chamber a round.
I went out and bought a Winchester Defender 12 gauge pump for home defense. They are very inexpensive as far as firearms go. Also, remember, a small child is going to have great difficulty chambering a round in a shotgun.
9mm are bad choices for home defense. The rounds have a much higher velocity and have much better penitration. They are much more likely than a larger, slower round to penitrate a few walls and hit a bystander. 9mm are great for target practice. I don't like a Glock much, too light, transfers too much shock to the hand, or at least the earlier models did.
Maybe you just want to get a gun for target practice. The best home defense is the telephone.
You should also check the murder laws in your state. Every state's statutes are different, God forbid the worse comes to visit you, but better safe then sorry. Remember ignorance of the law is not an excuse or defense.
Off in La La Land
Called around a few places for prices. For living in Alabama I sure am dissapointed in the lack of places to buy guns!
So far the best price I found on the Glock 22 was $489 new or $429 (with night sights) used.
what are night sights?
$424 for the Ruger MrkIII new.
Should I keep shopping around?
Are gun prices negotiable? I assume the used ones are...? Anyway, thanks again!
Dyin' ain't much of a living, boy
Have you looked into gun shows?
Apparently there is one in Birmingham Nov 26-27.
You missed one in Montgomery on the 5th and 6th.
Last edited by Grimm; 11-15-2005 at 03:14 PM.
Glocks usually run around $500. They recently increased their price by about $20 and added a locking mechanism in the grip, which some people (including myself) dread. Used ones are usually a pretty good bet. Find out what generation they are, as some minor improvements have been made over the years.
THere are a few types of night sites. Most are tiny capsules of tritium enclosed in a substance that fluoresces.
Seems kinda high for the Ruger. I'd go for a MK2 or a Browning Buckmark. My Buckmark is a real tack driver and was less than half the cost.
Well, I agree to an extent. It all depends on the ammunition and shot placement. 9mm hollowpoints or self-defense rounds are less likely to penetrate, as are some "safety slugs" like Glasers. The manuverability and the likelihood that you will have practiced a LOT with the 9mm will drastically increase your accuracy, comfort with the weapon, and subsequently shot placement.
Some like Glocks, some don't. I can hit an 8" metal gong at 100 yards offhand with a Glock 26 (the tiny, baby glock 9mm). They're accurate as hell, and while they're lighter, the muzzle axis (lower) and slight flexibility of the polymer body aid in reducing perceived recoil. To me, .40 cal seems too abrupt, shocking to the hand. .45 cal is nice, as it seems spread out over a longer time, and it's a heavier round going much slower. If someone is using it to target shoot or is learning, a 9mm is often an ideal carry weapon. I wouldn't hesitate to use one in my apartment if needed, with appropriate ammunition (I prefer Federal Hydroshok hollowpoints.)
Maybe, but it's usually too late before the cops get there.
True, but that is why I have a Winchester 12 gauge pump. Someone breaks into my place and I am dialing 911, grabbing the 12 guage and then talking to the dispatcher. I figure that I can load while talking to the dispatcher and me yelling "Drop the gun" before shooting will be a convincing defense on the 911 tape.Maybe, but it's usually too late before the cops get there.
Home defense and target shooting are entirely different. If I was going to use a pistol I would go with a large calibre if I could. For target shooting I want a small calibre, it's cheaper to plink off 100 .38 rounds than it is to fire 100 .44 magnum.
Here is an idea. Get a .357 Magnum revolver. Target shoot with .38 rounds and load with .357 rounds.
You don't need the night sights. I have a set on my Beretta, and while it's cool, it doesn't do much in the way of actually being helpful for home defense.
My amended recommendation?
Grimm is right on with the revolver recommendation. Revolvers are old stand-bys. You can leave one sitting in your closet loaded for fifteen years, not touch it, let dust collect, and as long as the rounds aren't corroded the gun will fire fine.
I disagree with cautioning against the 9mm. The bullets do come out a little hotter, but not much more than ANY round you're going to be shooting inside a house. That, and you can get rounds that are loaded to come out slower.
The 22 for a few hundred seems overpriced. Keep shopping.
If you're thinking night defense, forget the night sights and go with a good rail light. I have the surefire x200 and it's brilliant. It'll attach to nearly any rail (except my HK... requiring an adapter) so it's good with a Glock, Sig, SA XD-9.
Oh, and that reminds me. Springfield Armory's XD series (9/40/45). Extremely comfortable gun, shoots well, essentially the same mechanics as a Glock. Try that one out as well. Just don't get the ported model as it's a real pain in the butt to clean out the grooves.
I like the 40, but it's not my preferred caliber. More than I need.
I second Houdini's recommendation for the Browning Buckmark...I did a lot of shopping around before buying mine. I've owned a the Ruger MKII target version and the Browning shoots circles around it...Mine is the Buckmark Target 5.5, which they don't make anymore apparently. It has the bull barrel, full length Weaver rail and hooded target sights. I put a Tasco Red Dot sight on it...lots of fun. It will shoot 1" 10-shot groups at 25 yards with match ammo. Here's a pic of mine:
Browning sells the BuckMark Hunter, which is similar, with different grips and a half-length Weaver rail. Go to a gun shop and check one out! Here's a link to the Hunter:
http://www.browning.com/products/cat...51&type_id=403
I also recommend the Glock to the novice shooter--easy to use, light, carry-friendly (no sharp edges) and guaranteed to go "bang" when you need it to. I am a big fan of the .40 S&W cartridge, and its close relative the .357 SIG (near .357 Magnum ballistics in an auto...nice), but you can't go wrong with .45 ACP either. One advantage to going with the .45 is that there is lots of surplus ammo out there to be had for cheap... It took me a long time to "get on board" with the Glock camp, but I really like my Glock 22. Hard to beat the high capacity of the Glocks, either.
Like others above have said, go out and find out what works for YOU. Don't let anyone tell you what is "best". That's for you to decide.
I am trying to get a gun unfortunatelly however i did run into a couple of problems. A. really extreme gun control laws and B. *borat* Sex crime misunderstanding... *borat*
But walter and Sag Sauer would be my choice for handguns and a shotgun for home
____________________
IF A FAT GIRL FALLS IN THE WOODS
DO THE TREES LAUGH?
Walthers used to be pretty good, but now they're known for some reliability problems. Still, the PPK or PPK/S is a great weapon for concealed carry. More refined than its very reliable and MUCH CHEAPER clone, the Bersa Thunder.
Sig also makes nice guns. The newer ones feel funny to me though. Kinda plasticky or something. If you can find one that has "Made in W. Germany" stamped on it in good condition, it's a keeper.
While I don't knock them, per se, I don't like Walthers that much because I find it to be too pointlessly difficult to work with, but I'm just lazy that way. And by this, I mean that taking it apart and getting familiar with it isn't as simple as the plastic guns. True, a 1911 isn't that way either, but a 1911 has history and tradition built into it.Are you sure it wasn't plastic? Sig has models of the P series called SigPro's that are polymer frames. Otherwise identical to their all-metal counterparts, they're lighter and generally about 200 bucks cheaper.Sig also makes nice guns. The newer ones feel funny to me though. Kinda plasticky or something. If you can find one that has "Made in W. Germany" stamped on it in good condition, it's a keeper.
As for finding older Sigs, ask your gunstore to find you a "Certified Pre-Owned" Sig. It's cheesy to look at it like a luxury car, but they're basically older model guns that pass factory standards, have been re-blued, and have all new component parts. Pretty nice. All the kinks have been worked out, you get the older feel that some people like, factory warranty, and all for half the price of a brand new one.
Yeah...1911's are a pain to dissassemble and clean. So are Ruger MKIIs though. That's one of the reasons I like my Bersa. Sorta like a Beretta wiith one switch and remove the slide (barrel stays - blowback). My main issue with both it and Beretta models is the safety. Way too much fine motor coordination to flip the switch under pressure. Of course, you could always just use it as a decocker.
You're right about the plastic Sigs. Still, I have a friend with a Sig he bought in the 80s that has had zillions of rounds through it but still shoots like new. Great lockup, etc. And the "West Germany" stamp is pretty cool.
My next purchase will probably be a Glock 19. The 26 is a great gun, but I'd like the higher capacity and sight radius in case I want to shoot in GSSF matches or steel matches or something. I've used a 26 for steel matches w/o problems, but the 19 would be a little quicker and more accurate. It's also a good compact gun for concealment purposes with 15 rounds.
I love my Buckmark as well. With a cheapo red dot sight on it, I can hit just about anything without much effort. Target acquirement is uberfast.
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