Bobby Knight

[pennypinch]

It seems like there are few sports fans that frequent this board, but maybe this one'll bring 'em outta the woodwork.

I'm not going to say that everything that Bob Knight did was right; clearly, he did some bad stuff, like throwing the chair onto the court or kicking the balls, or whatever other unsportsmanlike things he did during games. However, if anyone has ever played sports, a coach's wrath is something that is part of a game: it makes you better, and teaches you a number of things:

• To grow a thicker skin
• to be able to glean constructive criticism from an emotional person
• not to be intimidated by a loud person

This decision to fire the coach reeks of a man who's never played a game in his life (the school president) pandering to the weak-kneed minority of people who found Bob Knight unattractive and unglamourous. It stinks of people who couldn't hack it, and smells of people who were looking for some attention. It just plain sucks.
I'm not going to stand here and pretend Knight's a saint. However, he's a guy that has taught scores of maturing boys to be young men. It is sad to see the day where tough love is construed to be abuse. It should be noted that, in a day of players being paid off on a regular basis and entire teams being suspended and programs put on probation, Indiana University has never had an NCAA investigation, and Bob Knight, for whatever reason, graduated his players. I think the telling point was the emotion and defiance his current players showed after the decision. If this is an abusive man, then he's scared the living bejesus out of his current players, because they seemed to be a pretty united front.
I truly wish the people who want to make everything smooth and easy the best of luck. They are quietly ruining everything for the rest of us.

[att]

i totally agree. if bob knight was such a bad man, no one would send their sons to play for him. the truth is he is not politically correct, doesnt care about the school's crap rules, and he cares about his players and the game of basketball maybe a little too much. he sounds like exactly what a lot of those young men who go to play for indiana need, otherwise how can you justify the graduation rate of his players? and as far as i'm concerned, so what if he yells at waitresses and secretaries? it's not against the law to be an ass****, if those people dont like it, they need to yell and curse back or shut the hell up.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by att
it's not against the law to be an ass****.

I sure hope not; I could be looking at some hard time in the big house if it is...

[Y2J]

I urge you all to watch Jim Rome on The Last Word tonight. There will be a roundtable about bobby including the Tark

As a loyal clone, I feel I must share romey's take, which I do agree with.

Sep 11, 2000 — Brainwashed members of the Bob Knight nation are calling Indiana University president Myles Brand a coward for firing Knight. They're right. He is a coward. But not for firing Knight... but for not firing Knight sooner. Knight should have been whacked back on May 15 after Brand viewed the tape of him wrapping up on Neil Reed's throat, and consequently lying about the incident.
This whole sick debacle should have ended a long time ago. Because he didn't have the stones to run him back in May, Brand instead dropped that zero tolerance policy on him, a policy that he and everyone else knew Knight couldn't function under. Brand was waiting for Knight to self-destruct and fire himself. Of course it happened, but Brand should have done it himself and this latest nightmare would have been avoided.

And for the record, Knight grabbing teenager Kent Harvey absolutely was grounds for being fired. Zero tolerance means zero tolerance. How could Knight not have known better? What was he doing touching anyone for any reason? There was no excuse for grabbing that kid. None whatsoever. Knight should have just kept walking. How ironic is it that a guy who had spent decades demanding discipline and control from his players has absolutely none himself.

***

Back for a minute to the disciples of the Bob Knight nation. This truly is a sick and twisted group. Kent Harvey, the teenager who Knight grabbed, has already received death threats, and had his effigy burned in front of Miles Brand's house. Fliers were passed out with a picture of Harvey and the message "Wanted dead." Also a banner hanging from a balcony read "Burn in hell Brand." Don't forget, these are the same lunatics who threatened to kill Indiana University professor Murray Sperber forcing him to flee IU for his native Montreal.

Enough already. This is pathetic and frightening. Bob Knight isn't some civil rights leader who has been terribly wronged and jailed for his beliefs or for something he didn't do. He's a basketball coach. A basketball coach who couldn't control himself and was whacked for gross insubordination. If he told you people to drink the Koolaid, you'd ask which flavor. If he told you to eat your pudding and wait for the mother ship, you'd take the poison, put on your purple shroud, and lay down for the last time. IU fans, stop burning things and stop threatening to kill people. You people are scaring the hell out of the rest of us. He's only a basketball coach and he got what he deserved.

***

So the question now is how will Bob Knight be remembered. I pose that question not because we have seen the last of him, but because we haven't. Don't think for a second he's going to quit now, just over 116 wins shy of Dean Smith's all-time coaching record. He'll be back for his record, trust me. But once he gets it, what will his legacy be? Will he be remembered for being a brilliant coach, master motivator and innovative tactician? Or will he be remembered for being an overbearing, hypocritical jerk who couldn't maintain the sort of personal control that he demanded from his players? The answer of course is both.

Knight is a brilliant but flawed man. He will retire with more Division 1-A wins than anyone in the history of the game. But he will not be remembered the way Dean Smith, John Wooden or Henry Iba will be. When I think of Knight, I want to think of the three national championships. Unfortunately, visions of chairs flying, bullwhips cracking, and Puerto Rican cops getting beat up come to mind. Bobby Knight is at the same time one of the most brilliant coaches and destructive human beings we have ever seen. And that is his legacy.

[Y2J]

One more thing...Pennypinch, you were saying that he helped mature boys into men. Well, if you believe screaming, choking, and constantly reprimanding them helps mature 19 year olds, you are one demented individual

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by Y2J
One more thing...Pennypinch, you were saying that he helped mature boys into men. Well, if you believe screaming, choking, and constantly reprimanding them helps mature 19 year olds, you are one demented individual

Then explain his inexplicable graduation rate, which outstrips, hmm, almost everyone at a major basketball power. Explain the fact that his players are routinely less skilled than most other teams, yet he consistently led them to more D-IA wins than any other coach in history. My alleged dementia is reinforced by the steadfast, unified support for a man from people that he screamed at, choked, and constantly reprimanded. My flippancy aside, he expects and demands the best of his players, and sometimes that involves treatment that isn't the most kind. Hey, newsflash, being treated great doesn't always work in every situation. Sometimes, you need to be "compelled". Do I agree with everything he's done? The whip thing was without reason or good excuse. Some of the other things (the chair comes immediately to mind) reflect a man that wants to win very badly, and has an anger problem. But do I think Bobby Knight is, overall, getting railroaded here? Absolutly.


BTW, Jim Rome is an idiot, a pursuasive idiot, but an idiot nonetheless. Pursuasive people are not neccessarily good, and I need not reference one, extreme example, do I?
Tark recruits and signs up convicted felons and guys who couldn't get into school if they had the answers. He was run out of the gym by Bobby Knight in '87, and was the object of an NCAA investigation which led to his ouster in '92 (?). He continued his errant ways at Fresno State, which at one time, could find all manner of shady characters on the roster. Tark should duct tape his mouth on this so-called expert panel, lest he speak, and therefore qualify himself as a hypocrite.

[Y2J]

Surprisingly, I believe tarkanian is speaking on the pro-knight side. I'll find out at 11:30. The way to look at it is both the trustees and knight are both to blame. Bobby knight for choking a player, threatening refs, etc. And the school for waiting 25 years to take action. The thing is, this should have happened years ago. No school/professional team would accept this behavior except for IU. All the IU students telling the press "If you dont go to IU, you don't know what its like" the truth is they don't know what its like outside of the protective bobby knight shell. The students there grew up watching knight coach, applauded him for burning his own school's dean and a school flag in effigy, and will support him no matter what. If one of the supporters was grabbed in the arm and lectured by coach knight, I believe his viewpoint would change.

Man, there is just way too much good and bad stuff on the guy

[Tse How]

C'mon folks, did you see the picture of the kid that was supposedly had his arm ripped off my knight? He looks like a punk. I woulda beat him down. What a pussy.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by Y2J
Surprisingly, I believe tarkanian is speaking on the pro-knight side. I'll find out at 11:30. The way to look at it is both the trustees and knight are both to blame. Bobby knight for choking a player, threatening refs, etc. And the school for waiting 25 years to take action. The thing is, this should have happened years ago. No school/professional team would accept this behavior except for IU. All the IU students telling the press "If you dont go to IU, you don't know what its like" the truth is they don't know what its like outside of the protective bobby knight shell. The students there grew up watching knight coach, applauded him for burning his own school's dean and a school flag in effigy, and will support him no matter what. If one of the supporters was grabbed in the arm and lectured by coach knight, I believe his viewpoint would change.

Man, there is just way too much good and bad stuff on the guy

I disagree in parts, agree wholeheartedly with the last statement. I think the highly visible flaws obscure the very private qualities. I think its no secret that a very particular demographic lines up to play for the guy. They are people who are looking for a challenge, by and large, and they receive a challenging man, a challenge that they go through to become better players and people.
I was never aware of him burning school flags or anything like that, but that's not to say they didn't happen.
And I guess that's why there's a debate as to why he belongs in the pantheon of great coaches: he did things that made you scratch your head; but with the people that really mattered, the players, the AD, parents, and the opposition, he was an absolute hero. He has one of the sharpest basketball minds in the world today. That kid that accused him of battery was just fishing for attention. He's getting much more than he bargained for!
The fact of the matter is that a guy who's devoted his last 30-odd years to an institution, for that institution to treat him like this, regardless of his behavior, is inexcusable. To quote Jerry Maguire, "There's such a thing...as manners." This President Brand clearly lacks such decorum.

[renots]

^$&^$%&^ @$#@)#)( @#@#@# ##@## ###### @#@#@ @ #@#@#@#!!!

###### ####### #############!

;0#

[zenbooty]

I'd respect Bobby Knight's achievement's far more if he kept his Drill Seargent approach on the courts and in the training room. Once an athlete (sorta), I understand the value of "Hardass" mentoring in maturing and building mental and physical toughness in athletes. But these same boorish, tyrannical qualities, while valuable on the court, are unacceptable off it. Knight has a history of physically assaulting (and to me that means everything from shoving, grabbing, or poking someone in the chest to beating the piss out of him (and Knight's actions have run that WHOLE spectrum)) students, administrators, and yes, even a police officer. While his basketball knowledge is probably genius level, his ability to mold players is not credited to any deep knowledge of building strength through adversity, but is simply a case of a violent egotist with a bad temper who managed to land in a position where such qualities had some value. His inability to control himself when outside his Kingdom is what did him in, and he certainly was asking for it, though I think he'd still be getting away with it if Indiana were still winning championships.

[ek5686]

Not to take credit away from jim rome or anything, i believe he is a great critic and all but, i don't think firing a coach who has won 3, yes i said THREE, national championships is smart. A man who has taken his bball team to like a gazillion division titles is really smart too. yeah, knight is agressive, but who cares...this is AMERICA, nobody cares about the strings attached especially when it comes to sports. Knight WINS, and thats it. That is the only thing that matters. Knight does have an unorthodox style of coaching but, hey...he brings W's and Indiana should've been happy with that.

[renots]

...for a couple of months

can we really question his governing style?

;0)

[fabfore1]

I feel he should have been fired! Not because of the
incident with the punk kid, but because of previous miscreant behaviors which have been well documented in the media,

(most disturbing to me was his comments to Connie Chung saying "if a woman was to be raped, she should lie
down and enjoy it instead of fighting it!").

Now I know his graduation rate is outstanding, he has won National championships etc., but I think his time has passed. He cannot flagrantly feel to be above the University President (although most college b ball
coaches make significantly more than presidents)by not responding to Presidential missives etc.

I see in the paper today tomorrow he is going to tell all in the ESPN
interview at 7;30 pm=I'm sure he'll really lambast the pres, bd of trustees etc.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by fabfore1

(most disturbing to me was his comments to Connie Chung saying "if a woman was to be raped, she should lie
down and enjoy it instead of fighting it!").

Are you sure? I thought that was some governor...

[fabfore1]

Conclusively,beyond a reasonable doubt,
he said it (Knight that is).

[sbp]

It was a numbskull candidate who ran against Ann "bigmouth" Richards for Texas's governorship in 1990 that said it. Suffice to say he lost the election.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by sbp
It was a numbskull candidate who ran against Ann "bigmouth" Richards for Texas's governorship in 1990 that said it. Suffice to say he lost the election.

That's what I thought...although Knight may have repeated it. I wouldn't put it past him, he's said some crazy things in his time.

[fabfore1]

Originally posted by fabfore1
Conclusively,beyond a reasonable doubt,
he said it (Knight that is).

This is through ctnow.com

The Defiant One
By JEFF JACOBS
The Hartford Courant
September 11, 2000

We don't rule through fear. We don't say things such as, "If rape is inevitable relax and enjoy it.'' Everybody knows this. Everybody except Bob Knight.

Also found this, scroll down to 1988 (when he said it).

http://members.aol.com/rmkgeneral

[Kurupt the Kingpin]

Originally posted by pennypinch
It is sad to see the day where tough love is construed to be abuse. [/B]

Hmm, so I suppose you're saying that choking a player, shoving them and grabbing them by their arm is supposed to classified as "tough love" and not abuse? Give me a break. It's quite sad when a coach can so successful and build such a loyal following that his abusive behaviour is deemed acceptable by his followers. To those trying to defend Bobby Knight, give your head a shake and wake up to the real world. Coaches who physcially abuse players shouldn't be employed, period. Knight should have been gone the instant he crossed the line from verbal abuse to physcial abuse. It's amazing he lasted this long. It's even more amazing that there are still so many people who are so ignorantly loyal to him.

[Y2J]

What's even more amazing about this whole incident is that Isiah thomas said he'd be honored to have knight (I mean Mr. Knight) on his bench for the pacers. I can just imagine whats going through the heads of reggie and rik smits now

[sbp]

Somehow I think Latrell Spreewell and Bobby Knight would choke er hit it off.

[RoniMan]

there's different styles of coaching out there. however, the thing that i noticed some people mentioning is the fact that he brought championships...therefore, who cares? that scares me b/c that says winning is all that matters. a true coach knows that winning is NOT all that matters. look at phil jackson. that's a winning coach, and he's very unorthodox, but he never touches his players, and he never yells at his players. jerry sloan, even though has never won a championship, still is a very good coach. he's known for putting together a "semi-winning" team. (i dislike utah very much, but still respect him for being able to do what he's done with malone, stockton, and other old fogies.)

teaching the players to win, showing them the ways of the world, desensitizing them to the negatives of society are good things to teach players, but when it becomes a physical lesson . . . there has to be a line drawn. as much as one is the coach, there is still some respect that needs to be shown to another human being, namely your players. which teacher would EVER dare touch one of his/her students? do you think they can use the "i'm just teaching them the ways of the world" excuse?

i don't disagree with his principles, i disagree with his methods.

[Full Monty]

Bobby Knight may be a good coach, but he needs to learn to grow up. I can see he has developed a very close and respectable relationship with his players, but that does not excuse the way he stomps around and acts like a child when things aren't going his way. A college basketball coach, whether he likes it or not, becomes a role model to his players, and the way he conducts himself on and off the court is not becoming of a mature adult. Unfortunately, he couldn't figure this out sooner, or he still might have a job. I don't blame IU for finally getting rid of him. It was a long time coming.

[pennypinch]

Originally posted by Kurupt the Kingpin
Hmm, so I suppose you're saying that choking a player, shoving them and grabbing them by their arm is supposed to classified as "tough love" and not abuse? Give me a break. It's quite sad when a coach can so successful and build such a loyal following that his abusive behaviour is deemed acceptable by his followers. To those trying to defend Bobby Knight, give your head a shake and wake up to the real world. Coaches who physcially abuse players shouldn't be employed, period. Knight should have been gone the instant he crossed the line from verbal abuse to physcial abuse. It's amazing he lasted this long. It's even more amazing that there are still so many people who are so ignorantly loyal to him.

Hey, you're from the Grizzball boards!
Anyway, I think we're all ignorant, unless you're a former IU player, Kurupt. Do you know he physically abused players? I'm sorry, but that video could have been a manatee feeding, it was so clear. I've been grabbed many a time by the jersey. A coach, in frustration, can push a player when trying to teach the offense. I remember one particular time the coach walked with me throughout the offense, basically because I wasn't picking it up fast enough . Last I checked, coaches were not prohibited from physical contact (i.e., touching) with their players.
Regardless, I'm not defending all of his actions. It seems that with this latest incident with the kid, the truth lies much further from what the coach or the kid are saying. Likewise, I'm sure many of the allegations have been both exagerrated by the school and downplayed significantly by coach Knight. He's not faultless, but I think he deserves much, much better than what he got. If you, Kurupt, assuming you're not an ex-Hoosier, are going to claim that the legions of players that seem to support the coach are "ignorantly loyal", I'd say you were passing judgement ignorantly.

[att]

damn, that guy that interviewed coach knight last night was a dick. you could tell he was trying to set him off to prove that the coach was an ass. i hate people that interview like that, it reminded me of jim grey interviewing tyson after he bit evander hollyfeld's ear off.

[Kurupt the Kingpin]

Yep I am from the Grizzball boards, I assume you have a different handle there?

As for Knight, I thought the video of him grabbing the player by the throat and pushing him back was pretty clear; at least clear enough to know exactly what took place.